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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Valterra Craven
542
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:00:59 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Tyr Dolorem wrote:Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.
I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem. Or are you guys just basing balancing decisions on gut feelings now? :P |
Valterra Craven
542
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:05:16 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking
We welcome feedback as always!
I think what you need to do is compare these drones to what they are supposed to be competing with.
So for example, is the garde supposed to be competitive with blasters or rails?
If blasters, then gardes need high damage, high tracking, low range.
If rails, then gardes need moderate damage, low tracking, high range.
From there you just compare how many drones a player has and find dps profiles that match ships, So for example a blaster mega compared to a garde wielding domi.
Given you keep nuking the optimal of the garde it seems to me you want to compare it to blasters, so why are you still nuking the tracking and damage on it?
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Valterra Craven
542
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:35:12 -
[3] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Tyr Dolorem wrote:Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem. Or are you guys just basing balancing decisions on gut feelings now? :P http://i.imgur.com/GqTO6zd.png
http://i.imgur.com/cP7kPvH.png
Working as intended. Feel free to provide me a Zealot setup that would match that at least within 10%.  Bonuses being the obvious part, as has been said, you can't balance sentry carriers without looking at the weapon system as a whole. P.S. Don't say, Shoot into their EM hole! Rectified by replacing one hardener. 
Shouldn't you be comparing them to their respective races? Aka bouncers to arties? |
Valterra Craven
542
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:41:02 -
[4] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones.
Nice try.
Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison? |
Valterra Craven
542
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:51:15 -
[5] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones.
Nice try.
Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison? You're serious aren't you? Both the Zealot and the Ishtar are Heavy Assault Cruisers. People don't even remember, or know what ships like the Zealot, Muninn are. Good job, CCP.
Serious about my first question:
"I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem."
We all know that the ishtar having access to sentries is stupid beyond belief (and by we I mean everyone but CCP) No one would think twice about the ranges of sentries if they were bs only and above weapons. Hell in that regard they are even underpowered compared to them considering some of the extreme ranges you can hit with rails and artys!
Yet, they keep nerfing sentries into the ground to try and fix this issue with the ishtar.
So my question is, what the hell are they looking at that they think sentries are still the problem?
As to your post, I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove as I already agree that the ishtar is stupid OP right now. |
Valterra Craven
542
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:56:21 -
[6] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Into the ground. Right.  Look up the two posts above yours.
Quick question. How many sentys can you deploy on a domi.
Quick question. How many artys can you fit on a mael?
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Valterra Craven
544
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:20:45 -
[7] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:
Quick question. How many sentys can you deploy on a domi?
Quick question. How many artys can you fit on a mael?
How quickly you change the topic from the Ishtar. 
So change the domi to the isthar, they both field the same amount.
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Don't try demagogy, it won't work.
There is no need for this. Either you can have a civil debate or you can't. Only you decide.
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Each sentry deals more damage than each turret.
Which is by design since you can field fewer of them.
Or do you remember the time when you could field 10 drones and then they adjusted things to reduce lag?
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
A Dominix with 3 DDAs can do 579 DPS at 103 + 42km ranges with Wardens.
For Maelstrom with 3x Gyros and 1400s to reach that range, you have to use Tremor, giving you 395 DPS at 108 + 44 km.
.
Or you could just switch to a raven which gets the same range and same dps with 3 bal controls.
Or you could just use tacking computers. |
Valterra Craven
544
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:33:31 -
[8] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Try to understand that Ishtar is a HAC, operating at Battleship levels.
It is not the same "amount".
Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:
Or you could just switch to a raven which gets the same range and same dps with 3 bal controls.
Missile fleets are very situational. I can agree that Dominix at least is balanced in this regard - an Tachyon Apocalypse matches it in both range and damage.
So if you think that the domi is balanced vs a tach apoc and a raven, then why exactly do you keep bringing up the point that sentries are broken, when even you think they are balanced against other BS platforms?!
Seriously, the whole point of my posts was to point out that in the current meta the only real problem with sentries is the ishtar, not sentries themselves and to try and figure out what data ccp is looking at that makes them think otherwise |
Valterra Craven
544
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs.
Zealot = optimal bonus
muninn = optimal bonus
eagle = optimal bonus (x2)
Ishtar = optimal bonus
All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol.
Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs.
Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role.
Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application.
The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics.
For starters, what is the range of those other weapon systems vs their dmg outpout? Also you forgot the missle boat.. you know things that have time to target issues. Seems to me if the cerb can cope with this issue just fine then hvys or meds should also be fine for the ishtar. Further nerfs of senty drones affects other platforms besides the ishtar, and those other platforms were already balanced before hand. The problem is the ishtar, not sentries.
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Valterra Craven
544
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:41:20 -
[10] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:I never stated sentries were broken, but their use on carriers is questionable and can not be balanced any other way. 
Why, there is nothing OP about a sentry carrier.
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Don't try to dodge it now.
The only thing being dodged around here is your reading comprehension. |
Valterra Craven
544
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Posted - 2015.05.21 17:01:34 -
[11] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Don't try to dodge it now. The only thing being dodged around here is your reading comprehension. Woo, edgy and salty. Gal didn't know how relevant a Zealot is in an Ishtar discussion, heheh.
The answer is a zealot isn't relevant to an Ishtar discussion. What a thing is can be pretty irrelevant to what a thing can do, especially when talking about issues of balance. The issue is that the ishtar is more likely compared to a bs given its a capability than it is compared to something like a zealot. |
Valterra Craven
545
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Posted - 2015.05.21 19:08:21 -
[12] - Quote
Alexis Nightwish wrote:To all of you who say sentries and heavies, being BS class weapons, should not be on these cruiser class hulls, let me tell you I've gone down that road and it leads to nowhere. CCP Rise wrote:This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.
We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well. I think the best course of action is to address the rediculous bandwidth cruisers have. Logical progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums: Frigate: 25mb Destroyer: 40mb Cruiser: 50mb Battlecruiser: 100mb Battleship: 125mb Current, and fundementally flawed progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums: Frigate: 25mb Destroyer: 35mb Cruiser: 125mbBattlecruiser: 100mb Battleship: 125mb
But that still doesn't address the ridiculous amount of range the ishtar is able to achieve. Cruisers should NOT be able to shoot that far. |
Valterra Craven
545
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Posted - 2015.05.21 19:11:46 -
[13] - Quote
link your
eagle
zealot
cerb
munnin fit. |
Valterra Craven
545
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Posted - 2015.05.22 02:37:57 -
[14] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Lady Aesir wrote:Ishtar
A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD oh noes ... the stealth bombers .....
Yeah a whole close of ships designed to die if a flea landed on them... again not comparable. |
Valterra Craven
545
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Posted - 2015.05.22 17:55:53 -
[15] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:Lady Aesir wrote:Ishtar
A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD oh noes ... the stealth bombers ..... Yeah a whole class of ships designed to die if a flea landed on them... again not comparable. yes it is .. the point raised was cruisers should not have access to battleship sized weapons but without a supporting thread demanding the removal of battleship sized weapons from frigates the point is redundant
No... it isn't.
The problem is that drone cruisers are the only ships in their entire class that have access to oversized weapons and are not appropriately balanced.
Stealth Bombers exist for all races and have been balanced.
Battlecurisers with BS weapons for all races exist and have been balanced.
There is NO appropriate comparison to cruiser drone ships.
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Valterra Craven
547
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Posted - 2015.05.22 20:48:19 -
[16] - Quote
Sticky wizzleteats wrote:
I disagree Stealth bombers have not been balanced....
You can disagree all you want, but they have been balanced for their capabilities.
Sticky wizzleteats wrote:
they don't decloak each other....
Because if they did, they'd be totally useless.
Sticky wizzleteats wrote:
And bombs are op when 100 people in wave after wave of bombers can hit you controled by on person squad warping people, and they just have to fire the bomb when told.
And yet, that's still less op then drone DELEGATION. Or did you forget that one person could literally control a ton of drones whereas with bombs people actually have to fire them and target things themselves (ala torps).
Sticky wizzleteats wrote:
Also instead of taking sentries away from drone boats, instead reduce their bandwidth to 100. I've 4 drones
Doesn't address their ranges or anything else about the fits on the ishtar that make them overpowered.
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